Listen, we don’t know Paul W. Downs very well. But from our few interactions with him so far, we are going to guess he’s a somewhat humble guy for someone working toward the high echelons of Hollywood’s creatives. Why you may ask? Well, for someone who has a significant role in his hit series “Hacks,” in a key set of over 140 images provided to the press for season three there is just one solo photo of Downs. Just one. The guest stars have at least two and, as a member of the ensemble, he has just one. Oh, and he’s the co-showrunner of the program. That’s, as the kids say, “wild,” but the good news is that Downs is finally finding his way into the spotlight. A spotlight that has seen him rewarded with his first acting Emmy Award nomination for Supporting Actor in a Comedy Series.
READ MORE: “Hacks”: Hannah Einbinder has met assistants to big stars who relate to Ava’s journey a bit too much
Already an Emmy winner in writing and now six-time nominee for “Hacks,” Downs has portrayed Jimmy LuSaque Jr., the manager of legendary comedienne Deborah Vance (Jean Smart) and fledgling comedy writer Ava Daniels (Hannah Einbinder), over the past three seasons. Jimmy went from working at a major agency in season three to striking out on his own, but the upcoming fourth season will truly make him the middleman. Downs says it’s going to be “very juicy and very rich” for him to be in the middle of two women who are now at odds with each other.
“At the end of season three because we have this double twist in ‘Bulletproof,’ our finale, he’s going to be really in between two people who have handcuffed themselves to each other,” Downs says. “So, it’s giving a lot of grist for Jimmy to deal with in season four. In fact, I will say that season four so far is the season where we have the most amount of material that we just don’t have room for. There’s so much we want to do, and we’re doing 10 episodes in season four. We did 10 in season one, eight for season two, nine for season three. And this season we’re doing 10, but we’re often like, ‘Yeah, but we could easily do more.’ There’s just so much we want to kind of unpack.”
Throughout our interview, Downs touches on a number of subjects including taking a deep dive into the Jimmy and Kayla (Megan Statler) dynamic in season three, the autobiographical nature of the series, how the history of late night will impact season four, why he likes being in front of the camera, and much more.
Note: This interview has been edited for length and clarity.
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The Playlist: You are an Emmy winner and now a six-time nominee. What was your reaction to finally getting nominated as an actor? What did that mean to you?
Paul W. Downs: I was very pretty surprised, but it’s so nice to be nominated for writing and, obviously, we’re so gratified when the show is nominated, but it was really special to be nominated by other actors who see me and are like, that guy’s funny. Because at the end of the day that that’s all I want to do is make people laugh. So if I was able to do it, it is very, very gratifying.
Do you get more excitement from being on screen than behind-the-scenes writing?
Y’know, they are so linked. Y’know? I feel like a lot of people who are writer-performers feel this way. I always wanted to perform. I always wanted to be acting, but I always wanted to write for myself. I would watch people that were on “SNL” or Robin Williams or people that were always generating their own material, and I was like, “That’s what I want to do.” So, even as early as high school, I was writing character monologues for myself. I sounded real cool, a very popular guy. [Laughs.] And I did that in college, and then I did solo shows and did sketch and improv comedy and tried standup comedy, and I was always writing material. So, they’re very linked. It’s very touching when people are like, “Oh, that guy’s funny, and I’m seeing him in front of the camera.” It feels special in that way, but yeah, they really feed each other.
You’re the only one of the showrunners who actually plays a character on the show.
That’s true.
When you are all in the writer’s room and you’re working on a season, are you pitching, “Hey, can we give Jimmy something here?” Or is it just part of the natural process? Do other writers bring it up, “We need Jimmy and Kayla to do something else.” How does that interaction sort of work?
I think we are always driven by being funny first. And so whatever is the funniest thing, it doesn’t matter to any of us, I don’t think if one character has this line or that line, it’s just like, what is the funniest way to execute the idea? And we start by mapping out the major arc of the season. And in that way, it’s like all of the characters fit in pretty naturally to what that is. There’s not really a lot of like, “Oh, but could we also include Jimmy?” I don’t really angle for Jimmy to be included. I want what’s best for the story. And honestly, even when we’re in the edit, we want a 30-minute comedy. We try and stay tight and make sure that there’s no fat in the episode. And if anything, I’m pitching to cut lines that I have. But what’s nice is we have excellent editors and my co-owners, Jen and Lucia are very kind and sometimes vetoing that they’re like, “No, this Jimmy Line has to stay.”
Jimmy sort of goes through the ringer in season three. His career is at a much different place at the end of the season than it was at the beginning.
Yes.
Was that more about Jimmy or finding new roads for Jimmy and Kayla together?
Well, I think when you’re in the third season of a show, you’re able to get underneath the character a little bit and go deeper with the characters. And we try and do that with everybody in the ensemble. Even in the case of Ava and Deborah, we’re trying to show new gears for them, and it just was a natural progression that we got to get a little bit more heartfelt, a little bit more emotional. In terms of the Jimmy-Kayla relationship, I think we get to see kind of how they both tick and what they both mean to each other. And in our minds, we’re always looking for ways to evolve the show itself, but also the characters on it. So, I don’t think that’s unique to just my character, even though luckily the manager serves a very specific role in getting someone like Deborah Vance this huge gig, which is to host a late-night show, especially for a woman, especially at her age.
One of the great things about the final episode isn’t just what happens with Deborah and Ava’s future dynamic. It also felt like one of the first times that we got to see this sort of sweet respect between Jimmy and Kayla. You could have done that halfway through the season. You didn’t have to wait until the end to put those scenes there. What made you guys decide this needs to be in the final episode of the season?
Well, we were always building to what happens at the end, which is that Jimmy says [to Kayla], “You’re not an assistant, you’re a manager and you should be my partner.” But we also needed to earn that. And I think the way that we earned it was by actually showing how savvy Kayla is in terms of being a manager because she thinks outside the box, she has crazy ideas, but honestly, in entertainment, sometimes you have to be crazy and shoot for the stars to make something happen. So, I think it was just a matter of us earning it. But always the show is about creative duos and creative collaboration. It’s very autobiographical for myself, Lucia and Jen. The three of us found each other making comedy, and really it is a love language for us making each other laugh. And so for Jimmy and Kayla, I think a way of making them, reflect the DNA of the show even more is getting to that place where Jimmy’s like, “Hey, I’m better because of you and you’re definitely better because of me, and so let’s be partners.” I think that was where we always wanted to go. We just wanted to earn it. There’s also something funny in the comic engine of Jimmy being flummoxed by Kayla’s chaos and all that. So, you want to keep the comedy dynamic there but also allow them to have a new dynamic that they get to step into, which I think will be really fun in season four
We just discussed where you wanted to get Kayla, she should be her own manager, but where did you guys want Jimmy to end up?
Well, I think Jimmy is so well-meaning, and he really wants to do what’s best. I think he’s somebody who’s really driven by, and we try and do that for all the characters that they’re driven by, whatever their values are, whatever their value set is. But for Jimmy, a big thing in that final episode that we really thought was interesting in dealing with was that he, in being kind of a big brother to Kayla and defending her to this kind of bratty actress who was her bully, she’s able to say, “Hey, you have blinders on and you’re missing the fact that I’m my own person and you’re taking agency from me trying to be the white knight and do all the right things.” And so we also wanted Jimmy, who again is very earnest and well-meaning to have missteps and to be human and to make mistakes. And in that moment, he didn’t do necessarily what was right in that instance for Kayla. So, we wanted to get him to a place where we, again, showed a little bit more complexity to the character, not just, a well-meaning type, a bookish guy. He’s also somebody who sometimes disregards people’s feelings and sometimes oversteps and sometimes does what he thinks is righteous, but isn’t actually the right thing to do.
As Deboran’s manager and Ava’s friend, Jimmy will be in the middle of what will be a potentially tense season four. Was that fun to work out in the writer’s room?
Oh, yeah, because Jimmy’s also the child of divorce, and so this is going to be very juicy and very rich for him because he’s very much in the middle of these two women. At the end of season three we have this double twist in “Bulletproof,” our finale, he’s going to be really in between two people who have handcuffed themselves to each other. So, it’s giving a lot of grist for Jimmy to deal with in season four. It is very fun. In fact, I will say that season four so far is the season where we have the most amount of material that we just don’t have room for. There’s so much we want to do, and we’re doing 10 episodes in season four. We did 10 in season one, eight for season two, nine for season three. And this season we’re doing 10, but we’re often like, “Yeah, but we could easily do more.” There’s just so much we want to kind of unpack.
I’m sure Max or HBO would say, “Hey, you want to go 37 minutes this episode?” You can, but you guys are good with 28 minutes. That’s it. You have to stick to that?
Always. Like I said, we try and get it to 30. Sometimes they’re 32, sometimes they’re 29, sometimes they’re 34. But we try and be as close to 30 as possible because there’s something about the speed of comedy, just the timing of comedy that we try and make sure that it feels quick and snappy and doesn’t overstate welcome. Now, we certainly do play with timing a lot. Like in season one, we have Deborah change the canisters of her CO2 tank in her soda machine in her kitchen, and we let that happen in real-time. We just let Jean change those tanks. So, we certainly do things that are slower paced, but in terms of the storytelling, we try and really keep it as short as we can because what we often joke about is like, “Oh, it’s an hour long, which we pack into 30 minutes,” so it is a half-hour comedy. But yeah, I don’t know about you, but sometimes when I watch a show and I’m like, it’s 70 minutes for this comedy? I’m like, what?
I know you don’t want to give anything away from Season Four. Totally understand that, but over the first fe seasons so much of the show seemed inspired by many female comedians who’ve had long careers and ups and downs in the industry. Now you’re in the world of late night. Is that a particular inspiration now? Not just the Joan Rivers experience, but what happened with Conan O’Brien, David Letterman, Jay Leno, all that stuff?
Absolutely. We always wanted to get to this place where we got to explore late night because even though the way that late night is watched and the people who watch it, and it’s not what it was when Johnny Carson was on, and yet it’s still, for comedians in particular, especially standups, it’s still such a marker of “I’ve made it, I did ‘The Tonight Show,’” I did five minutes on this big platform. And also for a comedian like Debra Vance, especially because she grew up in the era of Johnny Carson, it’s still the ultimate. It’s still the dream job because they get to do a monologue every night. They get to do material every night, they get to do desk bits, they get to interview people and show their wit and how quick they are every single night. And so being a show about comedy, we always wanted to get to this place. And yes, I think that what’s happened, the Leno and the Letterman and also what’s gone on with Conan, all that stuff you’re talking about, there’s a lot of drama that happens behind the scenes in late night, and it is still a very kind of high stakes environment that’s very much in the spotlight, even if it doesn’t have the numbers that it used to have or if it’s watched just as much the next day in clips. It’s still, in terms of comedy, kind of the ultimate. And so we wanted to explore that, and we also wanted to explore how late night and television is changing. We’ve always said it’s a show about outcasts of the entertainment industry. It’s about these two women who were kind of outcast to the desert of Las Vegas, and even for Jimmy and Kayla who left the management firm they were at in the beginning because they didn’t really fit in with this kind of fratty alpha culture. It’s about the people in entertainment that don’t quite fit in and the way that they make a path for themselves. And so we can’t not explore the parts of the entertainment industry that are changing and what it means and how that affects people like Deborah and Ava and Jimmy and Kayla too.
I know you’ve been swamped because you guys just got season three out the door and then immediately started writing season four, but as an actor, do you want to be on screen more? Are you hoping to find time in your schedule to do more acting?
Yes, I do. I mean, it’s such a fun part of the job and it’s something that I have great joy doing, and so yes, I do want to be doing that. It does take up a lot of my time because I do write for the show and I direct the show with Lucia and there’s, it’s kind of a full-time job. But yes, that is the hope, and if I am able to carve out more time or find more roles that also I’m able to carve out time for even during our schedule, I hope that that happens in the future.
“Hacks” season 3 is available on MAX